Comparative Religion

Comparative Religion – Part 3 ‘IS JESUS GOD?’ Bible verses BEST Dialogue

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Second Night
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‘IS JESUS GOD?’

Comparative Religion

Comparative Religion – Using google translate for translation from Indonesia to English, and, we Ready for edit our content if we there is miss translation. but for the verses, we use New International Version. don’t worry.

Part 2 Comparative Religion – Part 2 #’JESUS AS GOD?’

BM : As we had discussed last night, will our discussion be continued?
AW : Indeed, because we came here specifically to continue our meeting last night.

BM : If it is not wrong, our discussion still revolves around the question of the divinity of Jesus in the Bible.
AW : That’s right. Last night I hoped that you would show me the verses in the Bible; whether Jesus is God or not.

BM : Last night, I showed it.

In order to be sequential we should repeat the Gospel verses again, then I will show the other verses again; I agree with my opinion.
AW : Indeed it should be so, so that it is sequential and clearer, it should be repeated again.

BM : Please open Matthew chapter 1 verse 16.
AW : Well, in the chapter and verse it states:

Matthew 1:16
New International Version
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

BM : Here it is clear, this verse mentions itself, that Jesus was begotten by Mary.

So Jesus is a human child, not a child of God, as I explained in the first meeting.
AW : Yes, at the first meeting you explained and I understood.

In your opinion, what exactly is meant by the word: “Jesus and Christ.”

Comparative Religion

BM : Do you not know the meaning of the two words?
AW : I understand. But only to match it with the interpretation with you.

BM : Alright, Jesus in Greek, which means: “release,” to release man from sin.
AW : Where is the explanation that Jesus means releasing sin.

BM : Actually the arrangement of the questions came from me.

But I understand that maybe you will test me about the gospel, even though I also fulfill your expectations.

please check in Matthew chapter 1 verse 21.
AW : In this chapter and verse it states:

Matthew 1:21
New International Version
21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

BM : That is the verse, The Meaning of Christ is Almasih, the Word, Just, Queen Salem and there are several other meanings: The word Christ in the English Gospel is called: “Christ the Lord,”

in the Arabic Gospel it is called: “Christ Ar-Robb “The word” Lord and Robb “means my majesty, sire lord, my king, and there is also the meaning of God, and others.

However, because Jesus himself claimed that he was not God but His messenger how is that in the Gospel of John chapter 17 verse 23, and he was begotten by humans, as mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 1 verses 16 and 21,

instead he himself said and acknowledged that God the One (Single), as mentioned in the Gospel of Mark, chapter 12 verse 29 and in other Gospel verses, then based on the confession of Jesus, clearly Jesus is not God and not God’s child.
AW : That’s right you mean that.

Comparative Religion

BM : Next please check again in Mark chapter 12 verse 29
AW : Here it says:

Mark 12:29-31
New International Version
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

BM : It is clear that God is One, meaning one, Single, so Jesus is not God as I explained.
AW : Yes, I explained yesterday night.

BM : Check again Deuteronomy chapter 4 verse 35.
AW : It says:

Deuteronomy 4:35
New International Version
35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other.

BM : Your own Gospel that mentions and Jesus himself who said that there is no God but the One God.

So it is very clear that Jesus himself did not claim to be God.

I also explained this at our meeting last night.
AW : Yes, I have understood and accepted it.

BM : Check again in Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4.
AW : In Deuteronomy the chapters and verses say:

Deuteronomy 6:4
New International Version
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a]

Footnotes
Deuteronomy 6:4 Or The Lord our God is one Lord; or The Lord is our God, the Lord is one; or The Lord is our God, the Lord alone

 

BM : It is clear in the Gospels themselves that God is One, Single.

Jesus himself admitted that he was not God.

What do you think? Christians say Jesus is God, whereas Jesus himself refused to be called God.
AW : Yes, I did not understand and was more confused.

Comparative Religion

BM : Let it be okay. Let’s move on again. Check Matthew 27, verse 1.
AW : Alright, here it says:

New International Version
Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed.

BM : If Jesus really is God, it is impossible for humans to plan to kill Him.

Please open it again in Matthew chapter 26 verse 38.
AW : In this verse there is a mention:

Matthew 26:38
New International Version
38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”

BM : In this verse it says that Jesus was very deeply grieved if there was a God grieving? This shows that Jesus is not God. Check again in Luke chapter 2 verse 11.
AW : Good in this verse says:

Luke 2:11
New International Version
11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

BM : Is it worth that God was born by humans (Mary)? Continue to check in John chapter 5 verse 30.
AW : Alright, here it says:

John 5:30
New International Version
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

BM : That verse was Jesus himself who said that he had no power to do as he pleased.

Naturally, God does not have the power to do as he pleases.

In that verse Jesus confessed himself that his will was according to the will of God who sent him.

If Jesus is truly God, certainly can not be ruled by anyone.

In this verse Jesus also confessed, that he was not God but was sent by God.

The one sent was certainly not God.
AW : Based on that verse, it is true that your testimony is correct.

Comparative Religion

BM : Then it’s clear that:

  • Jesus Coming to this world was not his own volition but God’s will as God’s messenger, just as God had sent other prophets and apostles.
  • Jesus resurrected the dead not on their own but by the will of God, just as Ilyas could resurrect the dead.
  • Jesus can heal leprosy, not his own will, but by God’s will as Ilyas can cure leprosy.

My statement is based on Jesus’ own admission in the previous verse that “for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.”
Do you need more Bible verses that explain Jesus’ own acknowledgment that He is not God.
AW : For me, I still need more, haven’t I told you, that I want to find satisfaction in researching religious teachings, especially in the case of the true God.

But I want to ask, and sorry beforehand, how can you memorize about the verses of the Bible, and for your privilege I was amazed.

Comparative Religion

BM : That is God’s guidance. Alhamdulillah, I did study various religions, finally I became more convinced of the truth of Islam.

If you feel amazed at me, then I feel even more amazed at you as Christians who desire to examine the teachings of their religion.

Also with Mr. Markam’s help. Let us continue, check again in Deuteronomy chapter 4 verse 39.
AW : Alright, in this chapter and verse it is stated as follows:

Deuteronomy 4:39
New International Version
39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

BM : Strictly speaking, the Gospels themselves say that there is no God but One God, and Jesus himself said that there is no god but one God. So Jesus is not God either.

This verse certainly cannot be twisted again.

If there are Christians who acknowledge Jesus is God, then his confession is contrary to his own scripture, and also contradicts the teachings of Jesus.
AW : But in the Gospel of John chapter 10 verse 38 it says:

John 10:38
New International Version
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

This verse shows that Jesus is in God and God is in Jesus, that means God and Jesus are one or in short that Jesus is God.

Also in John chapter 14 verse 11 it says:

John 14:11 New International Version (NIV)
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

BM : If you hold on to that verse, that Jesus is God, then you must also recognize that God is Jesus and Jesus is God.
AW : Not so, but Jesus and God are one.

Comparative Religion

BM : Then, I want to ask: “In that verse there are two series of words,” Jesus and God. “Who is more powerful between the two. God the Father or Jesus.
AW : Certainly the Father.

BM : If there are still more powerful than Jesus, then Jesus certainly is not God, more clearly check the Gospel of John chapter 14 verse 28.

AW : Well, in this verse there is a mention:

New International Version
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

BM : In this verse Jesus himself said: “My Father is greater than I,” this shows that, if Jesus is God, then it is an imperfect god, because there are still more than their level.

That which is not perfect is certainly not God.

Please check again in the Gospel of John chapter 12 verse 45.
AW : Well, in the chapter and verse it states as follows:

John 12:45 New International Version (NIV)
45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.

BM : Should God be sent?. If Jesus is God, why is there a God sent.

The meaning of the verse is who saw Jesus, as if he saw the Lord who sent Jesus.

So the words of Jesus above show that he is not God, but God’s messenger.
AW : I have not examined the purpose of the verse in John chapter 10 verse 38 and chapter 14 verse 11 which states that “the Father is in me and I am in the Father,” as I read earlier.

But in this verse I think there are two kinds of interpretations:
1. Jesus is God.
2. Based on the Gospel of John chapter 12 verse 45 that we read says, Jesus is the messenger of God.

The messenger here means as God he conveyed his teachings to humans.

Comparative Religion

BM : That verse does not mean that it has two kinds of interpretation, but between these two verses namely in John chapter 10 verse 38, and article 14 verse 11 and John chapter 12 verse 45 it is contradictory.

In one verse Jesus interpreted it as God, and in another verse it was stated that Jesus was the messenger of God.

So in the Gospels themselves there are verses that contradict each other.

We need to remember back to our original discussion if there are holy books whose contents are disputed between one verse with another verse, then whether the holy book will still be preserved of its holiness?
AW : Right, we talked about that at the last meeting.

Comparative Religion

BM : Suppose you still maintain the divinity of Jesus based on the Bible verse that says: “Jesus in the Father and Father in Jesus” as mentioned in John chapter 10 verse 38 and chapter 14 verse 11,

then you will be answered by your own gospel, that your interpretation is incorrect.
AW : Where does it say that?

BM : Please check on the Gospel of John chapter 17 verse 21.
AW : In this chapter and verse it states:

John 17:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

BM : It is clear in this verse that Jesus himself said that Jesus in the Father and the Father in Jesus and his disciples were in the Father.

Then you must admit that even Jesus’ disciples were God.
AW : Then what is the actual meaning of the verse according to you.

Comparative Religion

BM : The sentence, “Father in me,” and his disciples are one with us (God and Jesus) in that verse, so that Jesus always does not forget God (the Father) as well as his students do not forget Jesus and God (the Father).

And at the end of the verse Jesus said “let the world believe that the Father sent me.” This series of words is very clear Jesus acknowledged that he was not a child of God, but his messenger, and continue you read in John chapter 17 verse 23.

AW : Well, the verse says:

John 17:23 New International Version (NIV)
23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

BM : Is the composition of the verse not yet clear that Jesus himself said and claimed that he was not God, but God’s messenger?

Are you still not satisfied with the Gospel verses that show that Jesus is not God, because I think you have shown enough to show you.
AW : As I have said to you, I want satisfaction. Actually, your statements have satisfied me, but if there are more verses, please show them.

BM : Alright, I fulfill your hope, please check in the second book of Samuel, chapter 7, verse 22.
AW : The chapters and verses state as follows:

2 Samuel 7:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 “How great you are, Sovereign Lord! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.

BM : In this verse it is clear that Jesus Himself confronted his words with God, that nothing can be likened to God.

So Jesus himself admitted that he was not the same as God, in other words he was not God and in the middle of the verse Jesus himself said: “There is no God but you.”

So Jesus is another, namely he is not God.

The series of verses, Jesus himself said that, “there is no God but You” why Christians raise Jesus as god?.

Please check the Gospel of John chapter 17 verse 8.

Comparative Religion

AW : Well, the designation of the verse is as follows:

John 17:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

BM : In this verse Jesus himself said that he received the word from God.

If Jesus is God, of course there is no need for words from anyone.

At the end of the verse Jesus himself said that “You sent me.” So Jesus was not a god, but a messenger of God, as were the other prophets and messengers of God.

Continue to examine the Gospel of Matthew chapter 26 verse 2.
AW : Alright, here it says:

Matthew 26:2 New International Version (NIV)
2 “As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.”

BM : What is meant by the son of man in that verse is Jesus himself.

So clearly Jesus acknowledged that he was not a child of God, but a child of man.

Continue to examine the Gospel of Matthew chapter 5 verse 45.
AW : Fine, this verse says: “that you may be children of your Father in heaven. …”

Matthew 5:45 New International Version (NIV)
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

BM : That’s it. In this verse you have witnessed, that Jesus himself said to his disciples, that you may be the children of your father in heaven;

that is, if his disciples obey God’s commands, according to Jesus they will become God’s children too.

Based on the Bible verse, of course God’s children will be many in number, not only Jesus.
AW : But in the Gospel of John chapter 1 verse 34 states:

John 1:34 New International Version (NIV)
34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

[new international version not son of God anymore but chosen one]

Also in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 3 verse 17 states:

Matthew 3:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

In the Gospel of Luke chapter 1 verse 32 it also says:

Luke 1:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

In Hebrews chapter 4 verse 14 mentions :

Hebrews 4:14-16 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus the Great High Priest
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

And there are many more Bible verses that explain that Jesus is the Son of God. If you need it, I will show you the verses.

Comparative Religion

BM : I understand, that the Bible verses that mention Jesus the Son of God are as stated in:

Matthew: Article 3 paragraph 17, article 4 paragraph 3, article 14 paragraph 33, article 26 paragraph 63 and Article 16 paragraph 17.

John: Article 3 paragraph 16, article 1 verses 34 and 40, article 17 verse 1, article 19 verse 7, article 16 verse 27 and verse 30, article 15 verse 23 and several other verses in John.

Rum: Article 1 paragraph 9, article 5 paragraph 10, article 8 paragraph 3, article 29 paragraph 32.

Galitiah: Article 1 paragraph 16, article 4 paragraph 4 and 6.

Luke: Chapter 1 verses 32 and 35, chapter 3 verse 22, chapter 4 verses 3 and 9, chapter 4 verses 43 and 41.

Hebrew: Article 1 paragraphs 2.5 and 8, article 3 paragraph 6, article 4 paragraph 14, article 5 paragraph 5 and 8.

Matthew: article 2 verse 15, article 3 verse 17, article 4 verse 3 and verse 6, article 14 verse 33, article 26 verse 63, article 16 verse 17.

Corinthians I: Article 1 verse 9.

And there are still a number of other verses in the Gospels that mention Jesus is the Son of God but that does not mean the true son of God, because Jesus himself claimed in the Gospels that he was a messenger of God, not the Son of God.

And he himself said: “son of man” is not a child of God.

So the number of verses in the Gospels that mention Jesus is a child of God does not guarantee the truth that he is a real child of God,

as we often hear the words “Ship Boy,” “School Boy,” does not mean that the ship and the school have children, but rather means that the person is always bound by the rules of the ship and the lessons in school. Check again John chapter 5 verse 30.
AW : The verse reads:

John 5:30 New International Version (NIV)
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Comparative Religion

BM : Here it is clear that Jesus is God, of course he can do as he pleases. But in the Bible itself it says that Jesus’ actions were God’s will.

And if Jesus were God, surely no one would send. It is impossible for God to be a messenger of God, or in other words “God’s Messenger is God,” could this happen.
AW : It’s clear and thank you.

BM : Please check again in John chapter 3 verse 13.
AW : Alright, here it says:

John 3:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

BM : It is clear in the Bible itself that Jesus himself is a human child, not a child of God.
AW : Right based on that verse Jesus is a human child.

BM : Check again in Matthew chapter 27 verse 30.
AW : Alright, here it says:

Matthew 27:30 New International Version (NIV)
30 They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again.

BM : If Jesus is truly God, how can God be spit on and struck.

Why is there a God who is so weak.

In accordance with your expectations so that you are satisfied with the question of the divinity of Jesus according to the Bible and the words of Jesus himself there mention he is not God, once again check in Matthew chapter 21 verses 18 and 19.
AW : Well, here it says:

Matthew 21:18-19 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Curses a Fig Tree
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry.

19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Comparative Religion

BM : If Jesus was God, surely he would not curse the tree so it would not bear fruit but he would create fruit on that tree with his authority as God.

But the tree that did nothing wrong to Jesus and the tree that did not know anything was cursed by Jesus instead. God’s face condemns innocent creatures.

But if Jesus is really God, surely He has the power to create the tree so that it will issue its fruit immediately, not then curse it.
AW : You know the verses in the Gospels very well, so it is clear that based on the Gospel verses that you mentioned and strengthened with several other verses, it is clear that Jesus is not a child of God.

BM : We discussed the Jesus child of God at the first meeting, and it was settled by the Gospels themselves which stated that besides Jesus there were still many more people who had to be recognized by the Son of God,

and that they should have been recognized by Christians, serving as children of God, not only Jesus, because based on the Gospels themselves many of God’s children.
AW : Yes, we have talked about that.

BM : To be clearer, let me repeat, the Gospels say that:
1. David the firstborn son of God (Psalm, chapter 89 verse 27)
2. Jacob (Israel) is the firstborn son of God (Exodus chapter 4 verses 22 and 23)
3. Afraim is the Firstborn of God (Jeremiah chapter 31 verse 9)
So David was the firstborn of God, Jacob was the firstborn of God, and Afraim was also the firstborn of God.

All three or all are firstborn. Which is really firstborn. Is this verse all right or all wrong.

Therefore, I explain that the Son of God mentioned in the Bible does not mean the true child of God, but rather that he means the lovers of God, or those who obey God’s commands.
AW : I already understand thank you.

Comparative Religion

BM : But you might not understand very well the meaning of “Son and Father” in Hebrew, or the arrangement of the language used in the Bible.
AW : Then what is the true meaning.

BM : In Hebrew the word “Father” is used for God, while the word “child” is used for those who are respected, such as Prophets and Apostles.

AW : What basis did you use that information for?
BM : I already mentioned that the first meeting was mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew.

AW : I don’t remember, in what chapter and verse.
BM : Please open Matthew, chapter 5 verse 9.

AW : Alright, it says here:

Matthew 5:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.

BM : Obviously anyone who reconciles humans will be called “the Son of God,” then the children of God are hundreds, thousands maybe even millions, so it’s not just Jesus.
AW : Shouldn’t we continue tomorrow night? because it’s late at night.

BM : It’s up to you, but alright tomorrow night we continue.

Comparative Religion part 3

Read Also :

Comparative Religion – Part 2 #’JESUS AS GOD?’

Comparative Religion – Part 4 #’Jesus the Redeemer?’

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